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Clifford's Red Card

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Kieran Donaghy suggesting David Clifford needs to learn how to deal with provocation following his recent dismissal. The available video shows little if any provocation, though in fairness the forcefulness of Clifford's transgression is also unclear. However while there is no doubt he is the target of regular off the ball fouling, Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself, just as Donaghy did in his day, live by the sword, die by the sword.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 220 - 02/09/2020 21:35:23    2290292

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Kieran Donaghy suggesting David Clifford needs to learn how to deal with provocation following his recent dismissal. The available video shows little if any provocation, though in fairness the forcefulness of Clifford's transgression is also unclear. However while there is no doubt he is the target of regular off the ball fouling, Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself, just as Donaghy did in his day, live by the sword, die by the sword."
How is this ***** let through

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 451 - 02/09/2020 22:46:42    2290301

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"Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself"

I disagree. Very few forwards want to start any nonsense, they essentially want to put scores on the board. A ruckus will not assist in that. Whereas a ruckus suits a defender very well - it aligns with his playing objective, which is to stop the forward.

Referees have always been a disaster at this; and, in fairness, it;s not just GAA refs - same thing happens in soccer. How many times down the years have I seen attackers being niggled and half fouled and impeded etc, in ways that would try the patience of a saint, and the linesmen and umpires do absolutely nothing. Eventually, the forward reacts (throws an arm back or something) and, immediately, PEEP! over comes the ref and cards both of them. I'm sure we'd all agree that we'd have a certain amount of respect for a man who connects with a good shoulder or who outpaces you to a ball or who blocks your shot or who dispossesses you, but all that continual niggling is infuriating.

I remember Stevie O'Neill finishing a game with the top of his jersey ripped to bits with all the pulling and dragging he'd endured; and yet his man received no meaningful sanction in that game. The boys who like to quote rule books at you will always go on about "no retaliation", but we need a bit of cop on here. Clifford is a young man whose natural instinct is to beat his man playing football; and that's true of any forward. When a forward "starts" something, it's invariably after they've been prevented from playing by continual sneaky half-fouls, none of them obvious or showy enough to wake a ref up, but which nonetheless have a disastrous and very unfair effect on a forward's game. Ideally, you'd take these boys out, but you can't, as you'd walk, and the back marking you knows that.

Donaghy is right in that Clifford will need to develop the patience of a saint, but I'd like to see early yellows dished out for all those tugs, drags, body checks etc.

Mark your man, if you can't do it by fair means, then get off the team and let our good forwards play.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 796 - 03/09/2020 10:28:26    2290330

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I think no one needs intercounty back more than this forum. Its getting real daft

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 03/09/2020 10:44:03    2290340

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Replying To essmac:  ""Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself"

I disagree. Very few forwards want to start any nonsense, they essentially want to put scores on the board. A ruckus will not assist in that. Whereas a ruckus suits a defender very well - it aligns with his playing objective, which is to stop the forward.

Referees have always been a disaster at this; and, in fairness, it;s not just GAA refs - same thing happens in soccer. How many times down the years have I seen attackers being niggled and half fouled and impeded etc, in ways that would try the patience of a saint, and the linesmen and umpires do absolutely nothing. Eventually, the forward reacts (throws an arm back or something) and, immediately, PEEP! over comes the ref and cards both of them. I'm sure we'd all agree that we'd have a certain amount of respect for a man who connects with a good shoulder or who outpaces you to a ball or who blocks your shot or who dispossesses you, but all that continual niggling is infuriating.

I remember Stevie O'Neill finishing a game with the top of his jersey ripped to bits with all the pulling and dragging he'd endured; and yet his man received no meaningful sanction in that game. The boys who like to quote rule books at you will always go on about "no retaliation", but we need a bit of cop on here. Clifford is a young man whose natural instinct is to beat his man playing football; and that's true of any forward. When a forward "starts" something, it's invariably after they've been prevented from playing by continual sneaky half-fouls, none of them obvious or showy enough to wake a ref up, but which nonetheless have a disastrous and very unfair effect on a forward's game. Ideally, you'd take these boys out, but you can't, as you'd walk, and the back marking you knows that.

Donaghy is right in that Clifford will need to develop the patience of a saint, but I'd like to see early yellows dished out for all those tugs, drags, body checks etc.

Mark your man, if you can't do it by fair means, then get off the team and let our good forwards play."
To be fair to you essmac I think you must have a very one sided view of that argument. As a player I played as a back mostly although was a forward on many occasions also. As a back I will admit I would engage in the occasional pull or tug in a match but would by no means have been the worst and was a largely clean player. My indiscretions were normally retaliatory.
When talking about body checks, in my experience that was always a forwards trick to make space for his buddy. I was caught by many cheap shots when following my direct opponent.
I acknowledge that perhaps most fouling is carried out by backs, but it's naive to think that forwards do not do this regularly as well. The amount of frees milked by forwards grabbing hold of a defenders arm etc. It's not a fair playing field normally with forwards getting the majority of decisions over backs without warrant.
With the forward mark coming in making it even harder for backs. People wonder why the game has gone so defensive with 12 to 13 men behind the ball. Well that is simply because it is impossible to mark 1-1 now, with all the advantages for forwards. By attempting to make the game easier for forwards, we have Actually done more to stifle them, as teams have to revert to packed defences rather than 1-1 marking.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 198 - 03/09/2020 11:30:29    2290350

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I'm not knocking David Clifford. Basically just saying that some forwards, for example Gooch, James O' Donoghue, the Brogans almost never get involved in foul play either instigating or retaliaton, while for others like Donaghy or Connolly, it is in their make-up to get involved. This hard edge can sometimes be a positive performance wise but it does carry a risk of cards. It is early days for Clifford but in my opinion his on field temperment is closer to Donaghy/Connolly than the others.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 220 - 03/09/2020 11:58:22    2290352

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He did something stupid, he got his punishment in terms of a red card and suspension. He's a young player and he should learn from this.
All the best forwards get extra 'attention', but plenty of them hand it out too.
A different code, but Eugene Cloonan used to get an awful going over in club games when he was the top forward in the county.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 880 - 03/09/2020 12:17:54    2290361

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Replying To sligo joe:  "I'm not knocking David Clifford. Basically just saying that some forwards, for example Gooch, James O' Donoghue, the Brogans almost never get involved in foul play either instigating or retaliaton, while for others like Donaghy or Connolly, it is in their make-up to get involved. This hard edge can sometimes be a positive performance wise but it does carry a risk of cards. It is early days for Clifford but in my opinion his on field temperment is closer to Donaghy/Connolly than the others."
Yep, he needs to cop on. To see him tearing the jersey off his own back at the end of the League game v Dublin last January was a disgrace! What must the children watching on have thought. This bully, trying to intimidate his markers by doing an impression of the Hulk.
For shame David Clifford - ban him for 12 months that's what I say...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5840 - 03/09/2020 12:45:59    2290366

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There is a disproportionate punishment towards those that are targeted in Football as opposed to the instigators.

Some forwards, Brogan, McManus, Cooper etc seem/seemed to be excellent and not reacting but others such as Connolly, O'Connor, Clifford (early days yet to be fair) seem to have their short fuses exploited.

Obviously it is down to the individuals to not react but at the same time the fact that the instigators aren't targeted by referees (even retrospectively) is not right either.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13148 - 03/09/2020 12:49:51    2290368

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yep, he needs to cop on. To see him tearing the jersey off his own back at the end of the League game v Dublin last January was a disgrace! What must the children watching on have thought. This bully, trying to intimidate his markers by doing an impression of the Hulk.
For shame David Clifford - ban him for 12 months that's what I say..."
Give it a rest man.

This is a proper topic, in that players like Clifford get targeted for abuse in the hope that they'll react. In football we have a huge problem with this, every county has players that are targeted and players that are instigators.

Clifford is still young and even if he can be a little hot tempered I still reckon he'll get there and learn to be more like Colm Cooper in that regard. No guarantees of course.

However the problem is that those that instigate these incidents aren't being targeted by the officials.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13148 - 03/09/2020 12:55:15    2290369

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Replying To MesAmis:  "There is a disproportionate punishment towards those that are targeted in Football as opposed to the instigators.

Some forwards, Brogan, McManus, Cooper etc seem/seemed to be excellent and not reacting but others such as Connolly, O'Connor, Clifford (early days yet to be fair) seem to have their short fuses exploited.

Obviously it is down to the individuals to not react but at the same time the fact that the instigators aren't targeted by referees (even retrospectively) is not right either."
Yeah, that linesman should have gotten his marching orders, winding poor Diarmuid up like that!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4150 - 03/09/2020 13:15:52    2290378

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Yeah, that linesman should have gotten his marching orders, winding poor Diarmuid up like that!"
Ha!

Not what I meant though.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13148 - 03/09/2020 13:22:46    2290379

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Yeah, that linesman should have gotten his marching orders, winding poor Diarmuid up like that!"
No more than Hermit, "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit". Look we all know Connolly has erred but if we're honest he has also been targetted for continuous jersey holding, body-checking etc ., don't think Lee Keegan would deny that, other classy forwards suffer the same. The question is how should the player react/not react. Some of these top class fwds seem to have a knack of never getting drawn into the nasty stuff (gooch, alan brogan etc). Clifford is only a young player albeit with a fair bit of experience for his age, should he bite his lip and walk away or should he stand up for himself and risk a card and a reputation for getting involved.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 220 - 03/09/2020 13:38:52    2290385

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Unfortunately at club level its far worse, all top forwards here will be targeted off the ball and as its opponents that they know well throughout years ( yes i know clifford is young ) they our/will just have to find ways to avoid this but now and again players react. He just need to be clever off the ball, don't think its a big problem.

Yourjoking (USA) - Posts: 525 - 03/09/2020 15:04:24    2290410

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Give it a rest man.

This is a proper topic, in that players like Clifford get targeted for abuse in the hope that they'll react. In football we have a huge problem with this, every county has players that are targeted and players that are instigators.

Clifford is still young and even if he can be a little hot tempered I still reckon he'll get there and learn to be more like Colm Cooper in that regard. No guarantees of course.

However the problem is that those that instigate these incidents aren't being targeted by the officials."
Yeah sure this is a proper topic, its definitely not another Dublin WUM doing his thing!

Enjoy fishing boyos...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5840 - 03/09/2020 19:27:30    2290454

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yeah sure this is a proper topic, its definitely not another Dublin WUM doing his thing!

Enjoy fishing boyos..."
More sarcasm with a good dollop of paranoia from the hermit, two ex Kerry stars, Donaghy and O'Mahony, have suggested Clifford needs to reassess his reaction to persistent fouling, are they WUMs as well.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 220 - 03/09/2020 21:31:35    2290469

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for a start donaghy wouldnt lace cliffords boots. Two very different players. it s nothing. Clifford is a monster of a man, he'll have no worries going forward. So what if he draws out now and again.

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1358 - 03/09/2020 22:10:26    2290475

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Replying To lilypad:  "for a start donaghy wouldnt lace cliffords boots. Two very different players. it s nothing. Clifford is a monster of a man, he'll have no worries going forward. So what if he draws out now and again."
Firstly whether Donaghy would lace Clifford's boots or not is totally irrelevant, Donaghy has loads of experience, is a big fan of Clifford, and has expressed the view that Clifford needs to learn to walk away, O'Mahony expressed a similar opinion. As to "so what if he draws out now and again", well I suppose it is problem if a player gets a red card and it costs his team the game, I would think.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 220 - 03/09/2020 23:09:48    2290481

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yeah sure this is a proper topic, its definitely not another Dublin WUM doing his thing!

Enjoy fishing boyos..."
Jaysus man, you're some tulip.

Either engage in the topic or not, do you think that star players are treated unfairly or not?

Have your little p***ing contest in another thread.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13148 - 04/09/2020 08:25:34    2290494

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Its pretty simple really, players will foul if they know they will either get away with it or that the consequences are not severe enough. A back will do it and so will a forward, these days forward are increasingly fouling defenders coming out with the ball as a deliberate tactic to slow the game down.
If everyone wants fair games then they have to accept that only comes with the ref blowing the whistle and sending players to the line more often until players begin to think the risk of getting caught it too high. This time last year if the health authorities asked people to practice personal hygiene and stay a home when sick etc how many people would have done it? At the moment in football the risk favors the person fouling for a number of reasons, if the GAA wanted they could change the rules and emphasis on enforcement allowing linesmen and umpires to inform the ref of holding, dragging etc that goes on behind their backs and then put the offender in the bin for 10mins and put the emphasis on the player who started it.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 983 - 04/09/2020 08:32:27    2290495

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