National - Try Hurling 'Super 10' (incl Prov Championships)

Replying To Whammo86:  "It'd be very good.

Omahants system would also be very good.

Both big improvements on current system.

Omahants is more flexible than he states above. There doesn't need to be even numbers in the Leinster and Munster championships to split the teams into 2 sections and it would be possible to have more than 10 teams accommodated. I like how his system will have unique pairings guaranteed right up to and including the semifinals. Relegation could be introduced to keep eliminated teams having to play for something.

Either system could be played off in May to August bank holiday. Loads of top quality hurling getting played at the height of the summer."
Yes, Wham, you are right - if Muns 5 + Lein 7, you could split the 6th and 7th Lein teams into A and B opposite their respective QF winners.
Btw, having both 1st Prov SF winners going head-to-head in Rd 2 will only work, if the 2nd SF winners from the 'long' half of the draw split 1-1 as well (it does in my example, M1,L1,M3,L3).
For greater flexibility, and due to a possible 2-0 split from the 'long' side of the draw earlier in Rd 2, it would be best to have 'both 1st SF winners' play against 'both 1st SF losers' over the 1st two rounds, prior to the groups being fully formed.
Do you agree ?

Also, is it better to have conventional groups as they are less convoluted - or have more complexity like I have, to accommodate/bake in Prov Champp results ?

omahant (USA) - Posts:967 - 15/03/2017 17:27:17   1967349

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, Wham, you are right - if Muns 5 + Lein 7, you could split the 6th and 7th Lein teams into A and B opposite their respective QF winners.
Btw, having both 1st Prov SF winners going head-to-head in Rd 2 will only work, if the 2nd SF winners from the 'long' half of the draw split 1-1 as well (it does in my example, M1,L1,M3,L3).
For greater flexibility, and due to a possible 2-0 split from the 'long' side of the draw earlier in Rd 2, it would be best to have 'both 1st SF winners' play against 'both 1st SF losers' over the 1st two rounds, prior to the groups being fully formed.
Do you agree ?

Also, is it better to have conventional groups as they are less convoluted - or have more complexity like I have, to accommodate/bake in Prov Champp results ?"
The main thing for me is that the hurling championship could be made much more exciting by adding in more games.

Regular group stages have the advantage of being familiar to people.

Provincial councils probably would be wary of the Provincial championships being part of group stages.

The league has increased in popularity in hurling over recent years. The GAA are missing out by not doing more to capitalise on the league in both codes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1360 - 15/03/2017 18:00:43   1967355

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Would a 'Rest of Ireland' addition as the 10th team be worthwhile ? It would give all county fans a team to follow - and why not include the non-panel players from the Super 9 in the 10th team as well ?

omahant (USA) - Posts:967 - 19/03/2017 14:38:43   1968487

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A,number of pundits are talking of the football Super 8 being the stepping stone towards a Super 12 or Super 16. They also envisage a Super 6 or Super 8 in hurling.

As ye know lads, I have set out the roadmap already;

FOOTBALL SUPER 16:
4 groups of 4.
Provincial winner in each group.
Provincial runners-up in each group.
2 qualifiers in each group.

HURLING SUPER 8:
2 groups of 4.
Provincial winner in each group.
Provincial runners-up in each group.
2 qualifiers in each group.

It seems the inevitable direction both codes will take. The GAA will subtly bring in a second championship for those missing out on the group stages. It'll be optional to participate in the second championship. The winner of the second championship will be guaranteed a group stage spot in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5228 - 19/03/2017 17:50:30   1968613

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Replying To omahant:  "Would a 'Rest of Ireland' addition as the 10th team be worthwhile ? It would give all county fans a team to follow - and why not include the non-panel players from the Super 9 in the 10th team as well ?"
That couldn't and shouldn't happen.

In both codes counties should just remain counties and if they're weaker so be it.

There isn't really a super 9 in hurling anyway, Offaly are closer to the pack than the top 8. Hurling has suffered enough over the years to ring fencing teams off anyway.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1360 - 19/03/2017 20:27:49   1968739

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The problem with alot of the formats is, especially those that have a provincial and then a super 8 is
you have really 9 counties at about the 'elite' level, so if you have a 'super 8' in hurling
after the provincials, it renders the first part of the season irrelevant as most counties will
almost always be in the 8 so don't need to bother with the provincials.
You need to either get rid of the provincials altoghether or make them the first phase to qualifying for the
all ireland series - that means a few of the teams knocked out at that first phase.

73forever (Limerick) - Posts:72 - 20/03/2017 14:47:33   1969115

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Replying To 73forever:  "The problem with alot of the formats is, especially those that have a provincial and then a super 8 is
you have really 9 counties at about the 'elite' level, so if you have a 'super 8' in hurling
after the provincials, it renders the first part of the season irrelevant as most counties will
almost always be in the 8 so don't need to bother with the provincials.
You need to either get rid of the provincials altoghether or make them the first phase to qualifying for the
all ireland series - that means a few of the teams knocked out at that first phase."
I address your point be merging the Prov results into the group phase.

omahant (USA) - Posts:967 - 20/03/2017 15:07:40   1969131

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Replying To 73forever:  "The problem with alot of the formats is, especially those that have a provincial and then a super 8 is
you have really 9 counties at about the 'elite' level, so if you have a 'super 8' in hurling
after the provincials, it renders the first part of the season irrelevant as most counties will
almost always be in the 8 so don't need to bother with the provincials.
You need to either get rid of the provincials altoghether or make them the first phase to qualifying for the
all ireland series - that means a few of the teams knocked out at that first phase."
I think the biggest problem is that all club & county competitions are moving to round robin formats which means extra games in every single competition. How do you cope with every competition getting bigger and the calendar not getting bigger?

My favourite format there was the 3 groups of 5 as it made a lot of sense.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts:5893 - 20/03/2017 15:12:38   1969133

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Replying To slayer:  "I think the biggest problem is that all club & county competitions are moving to round robin formats which means extra games in every single competition. How do you cope with every competition getting bigger and the calendar not getting bigger?

My favourite format there was the 3 groups of 5 as it made a lot of sense."
It's not at the stage where it's hard to cope because GAA scheduling has traditionally left lots of time between matches. The addition of round robin formats are just filling out the gaps.

The GAA do need to come up with a proper fixture plan but it is very doable.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1360 - 20/03/2017 16:48:01   1969190

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Easier way to explain -
Put Lein QF winner in Group A with its QF/SF oponents in B.
Put Muns QF winner in B with its QF/SF opponents in A.
Finally, place two SF winners and losers from 'short side' of the draw in groups opposite Prov Final opponents and other SF losers, respectively.
5 teams in A v 5 in B.
AI SFs = 1st in A v QF winner (2nd v 3rd in A); 1st in B v QF winner (2nd v 3rd in B)..

omahant (USA) - Posts:967 - 26/03/2017 16:11:39   1971175

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While there are many changes that would improve the NHL structure - a small change would improve retention of the existing structure -
Treat the current 4 NHL QFs and 2 Relegation Pairings as 6th league games - before 1A Top 4 contest the SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts:967 - 26/03/2017 16:32:28   1971182

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