National - All-Ireland Junior Football Final

Replying To KY4SAM2015:  "4th attempt - I have to rebut an insult thrown at me HS - you allowed him to post it please allow me to respond - Basic intelligence coming from someone who just isn't getting the argument is hysterical. Read the thread or get someone to help you - anyone can throw insults around when you don't have anything else to contribute!

The Kerry club system has been explained over and over again by my fellow Kerry posters and I dont think it could be made any clearer.

Many counties around the country have similar systems with the league and championship competitions being kept seperate. Glenbeigh-Glencar have been down in divisions 3 to 5 for many years and its great to see such a small club make promotion after promotion in recent years.

They have lost a number of junior county finals over the last few years so its great to see them finally get over the line this year and hopefully they can compete well in the intermediate grade. Only in the last few years they have won the mid kerry championship for the first time in decades so their rise has been unexpected.

Kerry have some of the best club structures and players in the country and that is the reason why our clubs have been very successful at all grades no matter what excuses these begrudgers come up with on sites like these."
Anyone fit to explain how dublin work theres ???

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:44 - 25/02/2017 01:07:04   1960363

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Replying To keepherlow:  "James 2011 does this statement not contradict itself??
Glenbeigh/Glencar do not get to chose to play Junior. There is no option for a team to play in whatever grade they want.??"
There is nothing inaccurate or contradictory in what James said, it's not rocket science to understand and has already been explained a million times

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:131 - 25/02/2017 09:57:03   1960380

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Well 9 pages in and there still seems to be a lot of confusion about the structure of our system in Kerry, am I the only one a little confused by the structure in Tyrone and some other counties. I understand (I think) League and Championship effectively go hand in hand, i.e you win Junior Championship your promoted to Intermediate Championship & league, what happens in the below situation.

The Rock (for example) will play Intermediate this year. They have a terrible year in the league, win 1 game and finish bottom of the league, but play out of their skins in the championship and despite poor league form go on to win the championship.

What happens then? Are they promoted to Senior League and Championship or relegated to Junior again?

Sorry if that seems like a stupid question but can anyone explain and explain how either outcome is fair?

johnrochie (Kerry) - Posts:1 - 25/02/2017 14:14:26   1960456

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A bit shocking how we're nine pages in and there's still confusion (and insults). I'll just weigh in, because Leitrim had the "northern" style until the mid-2000s when they changed it.

It used to be in Leitrim that league and championship were linked; if you won the intermediate championship, you went up to senior for next year and also up to Division 1, and if you got promoted from Division 2 to Division 1, you also went up to next year's senior championship. A team in Division 1 was a senior team, Div 2 was intermediate, etc. Relegation was by league position only as far as I'm aware, although I believe you could have finished bottom of Division 2 and won the intermediate championship and still got promoted to senior and Division 1. I don't know whether that ever happened before.

But now, however, league and championship are totally separate competitions. Relegation up and down the league divisions is 2 up, 2 down. Promotion from a championship is achieved by winning that championship. Relegation from a championship happens by having a bad championship and coming out the wrong side of relegation playoffs. From 2017, the senior championship (and intermediate I think) is 2 groups of 6. Top 4 teams in each group go into the championship quarter-finals, and the bottom two teams in each group face the relegation semi-finals.

Neither system has helped Leitrim add to their tally of All-Ireland senior football titles in recent years, which currently stands at 0.

Taca√≠ Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts:323 - 27/02/2017 10:43:03   1961478

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Replying To keepherlow:  "James 2011 does this statement not contradict itself??
Glenbeigh/Glencar do not get to chose to play Junior. There is no option for a team to play in whatever grade they want.??"
How is it a contradiction?

They do not get to chose, there is no option for them to chose.

That is a very basic statement. The get to league Division 1 by winning league games and being promoted. The only way they can get to senior is to win championships, which are an entirely different competition. They have to play in the competition they are in, they cant just decide they want to play junior. Next year, they will have to play intermediate, and if they win that championship, they will then be a senior team. They could also be relegated from Division 1 in the league whilst winning junior. So they could get promoted in the championship and become a Senior team, and be relegated from Division 1.

This really isnt hard stuff to understand and I really dont see how there can still be confusion about it all.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts:267 - 27/02/2017 10:56:33   1961489

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Replying To james2011:  "This thread is some mess. As someone from Wexford who has seen other counties league and championship structures, there is nothing unusual in the slightest about the Kerry set up. And I genuinely cannot understand how this thread is still going with the same dumb questions and comments.

Glenbeigh/Glencar do not get to chose to play Junior. There is no option for a team to play in whatever grade they want.

The league is a separate entity. Entirely. Sometimes teams have good league campaigns because they might start back early, or play better teams who could be missing county players etc. One year, our Junior B team ended up in the same division as the county senior champions as our second team had a good young crop playing well and they didnt bother with the league. It happens.

Kerry also have divisional sides, like many other counties have too so that players from lower grades have an opportunity to play at the highest club level. This helps both them and their county teams as a result.

I really dont get how people arent understanding what is a very basic and simple concept that is in the majority of counties in Ireland."
Some counties use the league as a barometer for which championship their clubs play in, like Tyrone, Antrim and Monaghan. It seems the majority of counties do not, so its about creating a level playing field as much as you can surely.
The major issue for those counties that use the league as a guide is that you could have a Division 1 league team who are playing a higher level of football all year against a Division 3 team in other counties.
It certainly isn't the various County Boards or clubs fault as ultimately they want to win a provincial title and/or all Ireland.
The issue needs addressed at Central Council imo

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1600 - 27/02/2017 11:08:40   1961498

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Replying To johnrochie:  "Well 9 pages in and there still seems to be a lot of confusion about the structure of our system in Kerry, am I the only one a little confused by the structure in Tyrone and some other counties. I understand (I think) League and Championship effectively go hand in hand, i.e you win Junior Championship your promoted to Intermediate Championship & league, what happens in the below situation.

The Rock (for example) will play Intermediate this year. They have a terrible year in the league, win 1 game and finish bottom of the league, but play out of their skins in the championship and despite poor league form go on to win the championship.

What happens then? Are they promoted to Senior League and Championship or relegated to Junior again?

Sorry if that seems like a stupid question but can anyone explain and explain how either outcome is fair?"
Yep, nearly happened to a team in Monaghan, came within a point of winning intermediate championship but ended up relegated due to league performance. If they had of won the game, the third team from bottom would be relegated instead.

Iamlegion666 (Monaghan) - Posts:90 - 27/02/2017 11:12:47   1961502

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Replying To bumpernut:  "Some counties use the league as a barometer for which championship their clubs play in, like Tyrone, Antrim and Monaghan. It seems the majority of counties do not, so its about creating a level playing field as much as you can surely.
The major issue for those counties that use the league as a guide is that you could have a Division 1 league team who are playing a higher level of football all year against a Division 3 team in other counties.
It certainly isn't the various County Boards or clubs fault as ultimately they want to win a provincial title and/or all Ireland.
The issue needs addressed at Central Council imo"
But again, you are completely missing the point. It comes down to championship. Its up to the teams to win a championship. If they were a Division 1 side who lost their Junior Championship to a Division 3 side, does that mean it was unfair? and how is it unfair if they win it? League is not championship, as evidenced in the intercounty set up where league placings have no bearings on the senior intercounty championship. Is it unfair on the Division 2 teams that the Division 1 teams have played a higher standard all year?

This is not an issue, and only seems to be an issue for some followers of a junior team that lost a tight AI final and want to blame something that is out of their control. whilst also having absolutely zero to do with it.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts:267 - 27/02/2017 15:54:02   1961667

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Apologises James 2011 regarding contradiction reply I made. I read ur previous statement back to front. I get what you mean now. But regarding us being followers of a Rock team that lost a tight ai final is no way near true. I have no allegiance to them what so ever. I would just like fair to be fair. What this might require is Tyrone to adopt the structure used in most other counties. Then the likes of Cookstown and Clonoe and Omagh can go down to Croker and win a few junior all irelands!!

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 27/02/2017 23:26:00   1961898

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Replying To james2011:  "But again, you are completely missing the point. It comes down to championship. Its up to the teams to win a championship. If they were a Division 1 side who lost their Junior Championship to a Division 3 side, does that mean it was unfair? and how is it unfair if they win it? League is not championship, as evidenced in the intercounty set up where league placings have no bearings on the senior intercounty championship. Is it unfair on the Division 2 teams that the Division 1 teams have played a higher standard all year?

This is not an issue, and only seems to be an issue for some followers of a junior team that lost a tight AI final and want to blame something that is out of their control. whilst also having absolutely zero to do with it."
Im not missing your point James and I certainly have no loyalty to Rock

You're missing my point, there are 2 systems being used when one should be applied.

Speaking from my own experience here In Antrim there are no Division 1 teams playing junior football championship. In fact it is usually only the bottom 2 or 3 teams in Division 2 who would enter JFC.

Surely you can see that if you play year in year out at a higher level then you will be better equipped to play to a higher standard. So a team who play Division 1 league should really roll over Division 3 teams when it comes to championship.

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1600 - 28/02/2017 10:47:09   1961966

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Replying To bumpernut:  "Im not missing your point James and I certainly have no loyalty to Rock

You're missing my point, there are 2 systems being used when one should be applied.

Speaking from my own experience here In Antrim there are no Division 1 teams playing junior football championship. In fact it is usually only the bottom 2 or 3 teams in Division 2 who would enter JFC.

Surely you can see that if you play year in year out at a higher level then you will be better equipped to play to a higher standard. So a team who play Division 1 league should really roll over Division 3 teams when it comes to championship."
so you think every county who has a league and championship should change their structure? I'd wager that the majority of counties have this format.

If a team plays at a high division, then yes, they should be better equipped for their county championship, much like the intercounty championship. Should we abandon the intercounty league system because it gives an advantage to division 1 teams?

It's not an unfair advantage, everyone plays the league and can get promoted. If they win leagues, they get promoted. If they cannot translate that to championship, then so be it. If they can, good on them. Some teams use league to try out things, some use it to win and get to a higher level. At the end of it all, in the majority of counties, it matters little when it comes to championship and thats what it is all about.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts:267 - 28/02/2017 13:16:28   1962062

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James 2011 so you think every county who has a league and championship should change their structure? I'd wager that the majority of counties have this format.

No where did the Antrim man say he wanted a change of format for all other counties. He has just stated that at the minute it's an unfair system.

Can you not just be logical and think this through and admit that there is a unfair advantage In a team playing league football against the best teams in county Kerry in seniors and playing their championship football against junior teams.

Lord save us!! How can u not see that this would have some advantage!!

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 28/02/2017 14:10:45   1962100

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Replying To keepherlow:  "James 2011 so you think every county who has a league and championship should change their structure? I'd wager that the majority of counties have this format.

No where did the Antrim man say he wanted a change of format for all other counties. He has just stated that at the minute it's an unfair system.

Can you not just be logical and think this through and admit that there is a unfair advantage In a team playing league football against the best teams in county Kerry in seniors and playing their championship football against junior teams.

Lord save us!! How can u not see that this would have some advantage!!"
Maybe it shows more bout the growing stanard of tyrone football r the decline of kerrys tht a proper junior team from tyrone can play a senior kerry team so close even with 12 men

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:44 - 28/02/2017 21:03:13   1962315

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Replying To keepherlow:  "James 2011 so you think every county who has a league and championship should change their structure? I'd wager that the majority of counties have this format.

No where did the Antrim man say he wanted a change of format for all other counties. He has just stated that at the minute it's an unfair system.

Can you not just be logical and think this through and admit that there is a unfair advantage In a team playing league football against the best teams in county Kerry in seniors and playing their championship football against junior teams.

Lord save us!! How can u not see that this would have some advantage!!"
I don't see the advantage. You really don't see seem to grasp the concept. I know in Galway teams in the league play a lot of games without county players. Main reason it was separated from championship was so club teams would play without county player's. Only way this could be achieved was by removing the risk of relegation to a intermediate championship from senior by getting relegated to division two. Same applied for intermediate to Junior. A junior team playing in division one night play a "senior" team but on paper what they face could be a lot less talented. I know for my own club team they might not only have access to county players but if it's close to championship they've often rested better players for fear of injury. You mentioned this big advantage of playing division one then surely they would of won the Kerry Junior championship years ago?

SamandLiamSoon (Galway) - Posts:164 - 28/02/2017 21:27:40   1962323

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Replying To hoopman:  "Maybe it shows more bout the growing stanard of tyrone football r the decline of kerrys tht a proper junior team from tyrone can play a senior kerry team so close even with 12 men"
Brosna beat Rock 2 years ago and they had just been promoted from Division 4, figure that one out

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:131 - 28/02/2017 21:50:05   1962328

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Brosna beat Rock 2 years ago and they had just been promoted from Division 4, figure that one out"
What does this prove? Two junior level teams in both league and championship playing each other,

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:408 - 01/03/2017 09:12:49   1962374

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Replying To keepherlow:  "James 2011 so you think every county who has a league and championship should change their structure? I'd wager that the majority of counties have this format.

No where did the Antrim man say he wanted a change of format for all other counties. He has just stated that at the minute it's an unfair system.

Can you not just be logical and think this through and admit that there is a unfair advantage In a team playing league football against the best teams in county Kerry in seniors and playing their championship football against junior teams.

Lord save us!! How can u not see that this would have some advantage!!"
I think you'll find I said this:

"If a team plays at a high division, then yes, they should be better equipped for their county championship,"

earlier on. But why is it unfair? What makes it unfair? They are open competitions. Is it unfair that Dublin play in Divison 1 in the league and Wexford play in Division 4 so therefore they have an advantage? Yes, they have an advantage, but it's not unfair.

I also said it "should" give them a helping hand, not that it would. 3 years ago Down got promoted from Division 2 to Division 1 whilst Wexford got relegated form Division 3. In their match up, surely that would give them an advantage, but it didnt. It's all about championship and the knock out aspect of it on the day. Playing at a higher level in the league only does so much for teams. As stated elsewhere, many teams play all league games without county players. Some take it seriously, some dont. Thats why you could have senior teams down a grade or 2, and junior teams up a grade or 2.

You'll also note that it was said by Antrim man this was a matter for central council to fix, hence my point that the request being made for all counties to change their structure.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts:267 - 01/03/2017 10:53:28   1962406

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Replying To benched:  "What does this prove? Two junior level teams in both league and championship playing each other,"
Read hoopmans post

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:131 - 01/03/2017 12:32:01   1962449

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Replying To james2011:  "I think you'll find I said this:

"If a team plays at a high division, then yes, they should be better equipped for their county championship,"

earlier on. But why is it unfair? What makes it unfair? They are open competitions. Is it unfair that Dublin play in Divison 1 in the league and Wexford play in Division 4 so therefore they have an advantage? Yes, they have an advantage, but it's not unfair.

I also said it "should" give them a helping hand, not that it would. 3 years ago Down got promoted from Division 2 to Division 1 whilst Wexford got relegated form Division 3. In their match up, surely that would give them an advantage, but it didnt. It's all about championship and the knock out aspect of it on the day. Playing at a higher level in the league only does so much for teams. As stated elsewhere, many teams play all league games without county players. Some take it seriously, some dont. Thats why you could have senior teams down a grade or 2, and junior teams up a grade or 2.

You'll also note that it was said by Antrim man this was a matter for central council to fix, hence my point that the request being made for all counties to change their structure."
My point was that there are 2 systems in place Wexford man depending where you are from, Central Council should be addressing that issue.

At no time did I say the system Kerry, Galway or Wexford use is wrong, Its a question of consistency so that perceived inequalities do not exist.

The alternative is maybe for minority counties via their county boards to adopt the system the majority do, however, I assume there are valid reasons for not doing that.
It may also be the case that in Kerry, Galway etc teams are of similar standards from Division 1 to Division 3. Unfortunately in Antrim for example that is not the case as I can think of one team in particular who do well to score at all in their league games.

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1600 - 01/03/2017 12:40:43   1962452

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lol - fair play on yer persistence Bumper. I can't for the life of me figure out what is so hard to fathom about what you are saying. That said, after one attempt to make the same general point as you and the responses I got I thought to myself if people can't see that there needs to be something put in place at a National level then I ain't wasting my finger moving time getting bogged down in debating it. Though I will be putting a motion forward at our next County AGM for St Galls and Cargin to take year about at being graded in the Junior Championship.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts:3234 - 01/03/2017 13:00:44   1962463

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