National - All-Ireland Junior Football Final

Thanks kerryfrog for all that info on how the Football system works in Kerry. I appreciate the Rural Setting of many clubs in your County and what you have described seems like a good way to provide competitive Football for ALL teams (Within Kerry) .
As has been said every County can set up their County Championships whatever way they so choose, some for example play with a back door system, other a league format then knockout. All this is fine, however the problem arises on All Ireland Club Series where ALL Competing teams should be competing on a level playing field.
To have teams play Senior League Football, but then compete in Junior Championship and have to win that in order to get promoted to the next level may be fine within the Kerry County Structure but come All Ireland Club Series this most definitely is an advantage over other teams from other Counties who play all their Club Championships based on what division their club is in. The whole Regional Team setup seems far removed from the 'Parish' boundaries that Clubs in my own County Tyrone are founded on, I actually though the whole GAA was founded on that basis? Maybe the GAA as a Whole need to get together and Agree on a Format that suits all, Maybe the Kerry way is the way to go; and I'll be all for that or any agreed setup and entry rules for the All Ireland Club Series as long as ALL Clubs are on a Level Playing field......

IrelandUnited (Tyrone) - Posts:58 - 23/02/2017 17:16:09   1959964

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Replying To hoopman:  "Lads letz all give up time every one in ireland except kerry are right at all times( bit like the wife) so its time we all said sorry !!!thiz year castlederg won the junior league so in doing this they can only play intermedate champnship next yearand we can promise never to dare do what cookstown r derrytresk done are tyrone did and be so damm cheeky as to beat them!!!"
Our setups have been in place long long before there was ever an allireland junior or intermediate allireland competition just in case ye think we're doing this just to win allirelands.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts:5338 - 23/02/2017 18:02:50   1959977

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IrelandUnited the system in Kerry works well due to having a County Championship and the other championships that I mentioned. There is no intention on the part of Kerry to hoodwink anybody and the teams that represent us are genuine. Under a system whereby a team may pass from senior to junior in two seasons seems strange to Kerry people as the right to appear in a championship has to earned in the championship and indeed the higher division teams are frequently beaten by the lesser teams. I think enough ink has flowed concerning this subject and all that remains to be said is that the Junior and Intermediate All-Irelands are a fine idea and long may they continue. What I liked more than anything in the Junior final was the honesty of the play with the ball from kickouts being sent into midfield to be contested. I thought that it was a good game with an edge but if there is no edge in a final what is the point in playing! I have great time for Tyrone football and long may it prosper.

kerryfrog (Kerry) - Posts:2 - 23/02/2017 19:15:48   1960009

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Replying To kerryfrog:  "There would seem to be an amount of confusion regarding certain aspects of Kerry's football structure. In Kerry there are 5 football championships which are as follows; the County Football Championship; the Senior Club Championship; the Intermediate Club Championship; the Premier Junior Championship; the Junior Club Championship. The County Football Championship is contested by the Senior Clubs and the county's Divisional teams. A player from one of the Divisional teams may play in both the County Football Championship and any of the other championships apart from the Senior Club Championship as to be selected for a Divisional team you must play for a club other than a senior club. There is no question of a club choosing which grade it would like to compete in; that honour has to be won in championship play.
In counties which have a grading system based on league position there is no onus on a club to win a championship to move up the grades which means that a senior club after three seasons of senior championship could through a concatenation of circumstance i.e injuries, unavailability, player absences through travel, find itself playing in division three thus in the junior grade. Assuming that the player roster is more or less the same over such a short time span, is it then fair to have what is essentially a senior team playing junior football?
In Kerry there are five divisions in the County League with three up and three down. This structure allows all the clubs the chance to move up and down the divisions quickly and all the clubs are considered to be senior which creates a strong identity for even the smallest of clubs. Each championship in Kerry is hard won and it gives the small clubs a chance to measure themselves against the big boys. This system works in Kerry and it does not mean that the Junior Championship is somehow doctored. Looking at the teams that have won the All-Ireland Junior clubs such as Brosna, Finuge, Castlegregory, Ardfert and Skellig Rangers were lower division teams as were Duagh who lost in a final.
The Kerry winners of the Junior Club All-Ireland are in general small rural clubs. Ardfert is hurling country as is Finuge. Brosna, Castlegregory, Duagh, Templenoe and Portmagee are small and even Caherciveen and Kenmare are small towns with Kenmare as much a hurling as a football town. Kerry football has no magic formula other than instilling the basics from a young age and giving clubs competitive football to suit their needs which they often surpass and in the case of small clubs this usually happens with the assistance of a couple of talented players. Yes of course there are some wonderful nurseries but without the clubs and the club structure Kerry inter-county football would not be as strong as it has and continues to be."
Thanks very much for that information kerryfrog. Any county in my opinion can set up their leagues and championships any way they see fit as far as I am concerned. In fact I think more counties should adopt similar championship structures to Kerry.
Perhaps the fact that only 8 clubs (+ 8 divisional) contest the the senior championship means that the team that wins the Intermediate would be of senior standard in the majority of other counties, might bother some people on here. Similarly the junior winners would compete in Intermediate in alot of other counties. This may be what people seem to have difficulty with. I previously gave the example of what the set up in Mayo for example. 16 teams in senior championship, 16 in Intermediate and 16 in junior and 16 in junior b. The league and championship are separate.
My elongated point is that because only 8 teams compete at senior it kinda naturally means the inter and junior winners from Kerry will be of a high standard.
Kerry are entitled to do what they want. Rightly so!

Weary (All) - Posts:190 - 23/02/2017 19:23:31   1960013

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Weary (All) - Posts:166 - 23/02/2017 19:23:31 19

Weary I have no problem, with Kerrys Championship structure, In Fact I Think maybe its something we should look into here in Tyrone, where we also have a Large geographical spread across our County. The Regional Team part that I questioned earlier may be something Tyrone GAA and the GAA as a whole could introduce in EVERY County to help give talented players playing in lower divisions the chance to play with better standard of player & help push them on to a higher level. Would be intrested to get a detailed post on how the Kerry League/Championship works and how the regional combined sides fit into that structure? Also with the Regional Combined sides, what way does that work support wise? Do people from certain area's identify with them like a club or are they more focused on player development?

IrelandUnited (Tyrone) - Posts:58 - 23/02/2017 21:43:18   1960063

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Replying To IrelandUnited:  "Weary (All) - Posts:166 - 23/02/2017 19:23:31 19

Weary I have no problem, with Kerrys Championship structure, In Fact I Think maybe its something we should look into here in Tyrone, where we also have a Large geographical spread across our County. The Regional Team part that I questioned earlier may be something Tyrone GAA and the GAA as a whole could introduce in EVERY County to help give talented players playing in lower divisions the chance to play with better standard of player & help push them on to a higher level. Would be intrested to get a detailed post on how the Kerry League/Championship works and how the regional combined sides fit into that structure? Also with the Regional Combined sides, what way does that work support wise? Do people from certain area's identify with them like a club or are they more focused on player development?"
Depends on the Region from my viewpoint gaels in South Kerry tend to get behind their team and take it very seriously whereas some of the Regions elsewhere have very little cohesion and training together although this is down to club managers effectively blocking them train with division side.

The Division sides aren't as strong as someone outside looking may think, they were much stronger 20, 30, 40 years ago than now.

Kenmare District did get to last years final but they were made of Kenmare and Templenoe who both reached the Kerry Intermediate Final so you had 2 good sides and easier to mesh than 6,7,8,9 clubs together

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:280 - 23/02/2017 23:46:20   1960090

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Replying To IrelandUnited:  "Weary (All) - Posts:166 - 23/02/2017 19:23:31 19

Weary I have no problem, with Kerrys Championship structure, In Fact I Think maybe its something we should look into here in Tyrone, where we also have a Large geographical spread across our County. The Regional Team part that I questioned earlier may be something Tyrone GAA and the GAA as a whole could introduce in EVERY County to help give talented players playing in lower divisions the chance to play with better standard of player & help push them on to a higher level. Would be intrested to get a detailed post on how the Kerry League/Championship works and how the regional combined sides fit into that structure? Also with the Regional Combined sides, what way does that work support wise? Do people from certain area's identify with them like a club or are they more focused on player development?"
Good point all ireland in tyrone parish teams might work at least poeple would have a bond to them teams but i feel if a player say from stewartstown madexthe ballyclog team coalisland parish i dont think he should be able to play for stewartstown that year at least this way the good players can move up and the younger ones and the lesser players more game time at there own clubs

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:72 - 24/02/2017 07:03:21   1960109

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The divisional structure and teams would have support within Kerry. The tricky part for divisions is the first round or 2 of the championship and getting players together. If teams get through to the quarter finals then you would find the divisions being more organised and better supported. In Kerry, it would be an goal for players to make their divisional team it is seen as a stepping stone to the county team/ squad. Inter club squabbles are put aside as winning a Senior Championship medal is far more important. While development squads help younger players until they get to minor, its of greater benefit to them to be able to make their place on the divisional team and hold their own in the Senior Championship.

In all, if a Divisional outfit were to win the Senior Championship, then they would only play 5 games

Defullback2017 (Kerry) - Posts:3 - 24/02/2017 08:57:23   1960130

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Ye'd have a conniption if we have to run through the divisional championships.
League placing goes out the window for those results

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts:1199 - 24/02/2017 10:02:36   1960149

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Replying To Superglue:  "Ye'd have a conniption if we have to run through the divisional championships.
League placing goes out the window for those results"
Not that interested really. Just wanted championship structures explained to prove a point

Weary (All) - Posts:190 - 24/02/2017 10:40:07   1960155

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Replying To Weary:  "Not that interested really. Just wanted championship structures explained to prove a point"
It has a place in this in that they are hugely competitive championships, where senior inter and junior clubs play each other. Not unusual for Div 4/5 teams to turn over div 1 teams

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts:1199 - 24/02/2017 11:12:46   1960173

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Having read through the debate on this I suppose the one bit I don't get is not the structures within Kerry but how teams like Glenbeing/Glencar are graded in Junior outside Kerry. I am looking at our own structures within Antrim and trying to do a comparison of where G/G would stand within our County. They are a rural club who play in a Divisional and County League and Championship and comparing to here (from the rural aspect), there is a Divisional Championship and County League and Championships.

G/G (along with Milltown/Castlemaine) have dominated the Divisional Championship (Mid Kerry) over the last number of years, play in Division 1 but play in the Junior County Championship (unlike M/C who play in the Senior Championship). The teams who have dominated the Divisional Championship (SW Antrim) also play in Division 1 of our County Leagues, also would be small rural parishes but are County Senior Championship. And I suppose as here these teams who are successful in the Divisional Championships and play in Division 1 of the league would never be near our Junior Championship (nor perhaps near the Intermediate either) it leaves it hard to balance it in my mind as being fair that G/G play Junior grade in the All Ireland Series. Intermediate I would have no problem with. I think to our County winners who were in the Ulster Junior - they are a small rural parish, playing in the lowest league in Antrim and I am not even sure if or when they last won a SW Championship. To me that is a Junior club.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts:3345 - 24/02/2017 12:21:27   1960198

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Having read through the debate on this I suppose the one bit I don't get is not the structures within Kerry but how teams like Glenbeing/Glencar are graded in Junior outside Kerry. I am looking at our own structures within Antrim and trying to do a comparison of where G/G would stand within our County. They are a rural club who play in a Divisional and County League and Championship and comparing to here (from the rural aspect), there is a Divisional Championship and County League and Championships.

G/G (along with Milltown/Castlemaine) have dominated the Divisional Championship (Mid Kerry) over the last number of years, play in Division 1 but play in the Junior County Championship (unlike M/C who play in the Senior Championship). The teams who have dominated the Divisional Championship (SW Antrim) also play in Division 1 of our County Leagues, also would be small rural parishes but are County Senior Championship. And I suppose as here these teams who are successful in the Divisional Championships and play in Division 1 of the league would never be near our Junior Championship (nor perhaps near the Intermediate either) it leaves it hard to balance it in my mind as being fair that G/G play Junior grade in the All Ireland Series. Intermediate I would have no problem with. I think to our County winners who were in the Ulster Junior - they are a small rural parish, playing in the lowest league in Antrim and I am not even sure if or when they last won a SW Championship. To me that is a Junior club."
The Rock went 2 points up last week with 12 minutes left. The 2 teams looked very well matched just G/G were more composed at the end so I don't understand how it can be claimed 1 side was of a standard that was suitable to play at that level and the other wasn't.

Soma (UK) - Posts:1925 - 24/02/2017 13:24:02   1960211

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Having read through the debate on this I suppose the one bit I don't get is not the structures within Kerry but how teams like Glenbeing/Glencar are graded in Junior outside Kerry. I am looking at our own structures within Antrim and trying to do a comparison of where G/G would stand within our County. They are a rural club who play in a Divisional and County League and Championship and comparing to here (from the rural aspect), there is a Divisional Championship and County League and Championships.

G/G (along with Milltown/Castlemaine) have dominated the Divisional Championship (Mid Kerry) over the last number of years, play in Division 1 but play in the Junior County Championship (unlike M/C who play in the Senior Championship). The teams who have dominated the Divisional Championship (SW Antrim) also play in Division 1 of our County Leagues, also would be small rural parishes but are County Senior Championship. And I suppose as here these teams who are successful in the Divisional Championships and play in Division 1 of the league would never be near our Junior Championship (nor perhaps near the Intermediate either) it leaves it hard to balance it in my mind as being fair that G/G play Junior grade in the All Ireland Series. Intermediate I would have no problem with. I think to our County winners who were in the Ulster Junior - they are a small rural parish, playing in the lowest league in Antrim and I am not even sure if or when they last won a SW Championship. To me that is a Junior club."
You have to win the Junior Championship to gain promotion

As i have said people are taking too much stock in league status, Rathmore have been in Division 2 for the last few years yet have been Senior sthey won the intermediate in 1999 and I would rate them in the Top 3/4 clubs in Kerry at full strength at the moment

In fact the 3 teams who were relegated from Division 1 in 2016 will all be Senior in 2017

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:280 - 24/02/2017 13:36:32   1960221

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "You are either being deliberately obtuse or just haven't the basic intelligence to understand the Kerry system.

Rock played Brosna a Div 3 side just 2 years ago and lost, figure that one out"
Basic intelligence coming from someone who just isn't getting the argument is hysterical. Read the thread or get someone to help you - anyone can throw insults around when you don't have anything else to contribute!

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts:708 - 24/02/2017 15:28:59   1960248

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "You are either being deliberately obtuse or just haven't the basic intelligence to understand the Kerry system.

Rock played Brosna a Div 3 side just 2 years ago and lost, figure that one out"
4th attempt - I have to rebut an insult thrown at me HS - you allowed him to post it please allow me to respond - Basic intelligence coming from someone who just isn't getting the argument is hysterical. Read the thread or get someone to help you - anyone can throw insults around when you don't have anything else to contribute!

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts:708 - 24/02/2017 15:31:33   1960250

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This thread is some mess. As someone from Wexford who has seen other counties league and championship structures, there is nothing unusual in the slightest about the Kerry set up. And I genuinely cannot understand how this thread is still going with the same dumb questions and comments.

Glenbeigh/Glencar do not get to chose to play Junior. There is no option for a team to play in whatever grade they want.

The league is a separate entity. Entirely. Sometimes teams have good league campaigns because they might start back early, or play better teams who could be missing county players etc. One year, our Junior B team ended up in the same division as the county senior champions as our second team had a good young crop playing well and they didnt bother with the league. It happens.

Kerry also have divisional sides, like many other counties have too so that players from lower grades have an opportunity to play at the highest club level. This helps both them and their county teams as a result.

I really dont get how people arent understanding what is a very basic and simple concept that is in the majority of counties in Ireland.

james2011 (Wexford) - Posts:311 - 24/02/2017 16:14:13   1960265

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Replying To IrishGael3:  "4th attempt - I have to rebut an insult thrown at me HS - you allowed him to post it please allow me to respond - Basic intelligence coming from someone who just isn't getting the argument is hysterical. Read the thread or get someone to help you - anyone can throw insults around when you don't have anything else to contribute!"
4th attempt - I have to rebut an insult thrown at me HS - you allowed him to post it please allow me to respond - Basic intelligence coming from someone who just isn't getting the argument is hysterical. Read the thread or get someone to help you - anyone can throw insults around when you don't have anything else to contribute!

The Kerry club system has been explained over and over again by my fellow Kerry posters and I dont think it could be made any clearer.

Many counties around the country have similar systems with the league and championship competitions being kept seperate. Glenbeigh-Glencar have been down in divisions 3 to 5 for many years and its great to see such a small club make promotion after promotion in recent years.

They have lost a number of junior county finals over the last few years so its great to see them finally get over the line this year and hopefully they can compete well in the intermediate grade. Only in the last few years they have won the mid kerry championship for the first time in decades so their rise has been unexpected.

Kerry have some of the best club structures and players in the country and that is the reason why our clubs have been very successful at all grades no matter what excuses these begrudgers come up with on sites like these.

KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts:473 - 24/02/2017 17:00:18   1960283

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James 2011 does this statement not contradict itself??
Glenbeigh/Glencar do not get to chose to play Junior. There is no option for a team to play in whatever grade they want.??

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 25/02/2017 00:00:45   1960358

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The two systems are so different. We could say our system is the best but we haven't tried the Kerry option. Or vice Versa. I think Tyrone and especiallly myself may never be able grasp the Kerry structure. But I will stick to my guns in my belief that many of the junior teams coming out of the county in the all Ireland club series are in fact not really junior teams.

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 25/02/2017 00:07:38   1960359

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