National - All-Ireland Junior Football Final

I wasn't trying to make out they were ineligible, going by the rules they are, just as neverright said there doesn't seem to be much guideline from above on who can take part in these competitions or what is classed as a junior or intermediate team.
Am I right in saying that G/G is an amalgamation? Were they both junior teams before they amalgamated? Did other junior teams in Kerry not wonder at an amalgamated team keeping their junior status, especially as they started to rise through the leagues? Obviously they were expected to do good things as someone has referred to them as "chokers" for not having won the junior championship before now.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:408 - 22/02/2017 18:15:26   1959632

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Glencar is no more than a scattering of houses at the foot of Carrauntoohill.

m_the_d (All) - Posts:918 - 22/02/2017 18:41:49   1959641

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A bit of history here on Glenbeigh for anyone interested.
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Soma (UK) - Posts:1802 - 22/02/2017 19:18:19   1959648

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http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar

G/G held its own in quite a few of their senior league games in 2016. Don't think the likes of Rock etc could keep up with the standard of a dromore Carrickmore etc.
I liked the insight into club structures in other counties but will not get my head round how a team that can beat quite a few senior teams in the league are playing junior championship. It cheapens the competition. This is not a go at Kerry structures it's just the unfairness because the gaa hq has not set out rules on structures in all counties so as to make it a level playing field. Junior footballers come through a tight Ulster competition and then have the pleasure of playing a senior(league) team in the biggest game of their lives!! Bit disheartening putting nearly a year and a half into something and it not a fair contest. http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 22/02/2017 22:54:50   1959733

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Replying To keepherlow:  "http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar

G/G held its own in quite a few of their senior league games in 2016. Don't think the likes of Rock etc could keep up with the standard of a dromore Carrickmore etc.
I liked the insight into club structures in other counties but will not get my head round how a team that can beat quite a few senior teams in the league are playing junior championship. It cheapens the competition. This is not a go at Kerry structures it's just the unfairness because the gaa hq has not set out rules on structures in all counties so as to make it a level playing field. Junior footballers come through a tight Ulster competition and then have the pleasure of playing a senior(league) team in the biggest game of their lives!! Bit disheartening putting nearly a year and a half into something and it not a fair contest. http://www.kerrygaa.ie/clubResults/28678/1608/Glenbeigh-Glencar"
Thts a good point . In football terms kerry have proved there system works for there county teamin armagh nearly all there senior league could drop to junior champnship if tht happened these alirelands would never leave the orange county

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:44 - 23/02/2017 06:18:02   1959758

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Replying To hoopman:  "Thts a good point . In football terms kerry have proved there system works for there county teamin armagh nearly all there senior league could drop to junior champnship if tht happened these alirelands would never leave the orange county"
Cheapening the competition?????? get real guys.
League and championship are 2 different competitions.
G/G have been favorites to win the Kerry Junior championship for every year the last decade yet every year another "lesser" team has beaten them.
the Rock seem like a good quality club team but they were just not good enough to beat them on the day.

In the millenium in Kerry we had a briliant competition for that one year only called the Millenium Cup.
Every club team was involved from Div1 to 5. the amount of Div4/5 teams that went on to beat teams higher up in the league that year was something else. That year the winner of the Millenium Cup represented Kerry in the Munster Club.
So stop moaning about leagues if a team is good enough they will win their championships.

woops (Kerry) - Posts:1747 - 23/02/2017 10:42:29   1959794

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think what we are saying is falling on deaf ears. ill give up on trying to change your view!!There is too big a difference with ulster structures and alot of other counties in ireland. Its not our fault or your fault for the way the structures are in place. i think that a stat that 'out of last 15 seasons that 10 kerry teams have been in the all-ireland junior final'. Clearly your junior teams are sublime or you are playing teams in junior championships that are above well Junior standard.
I know i choose the latter!!!

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 23/02/2017 11:57:16   1959835

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my own club were well beaten by finuge in the 2005 All-Ireland Junior final. Finuge were Division 3 at the time but had 4 players who had All-Ireland senior medals (Paul Galvin, Eamon Fitzmaurice, Enda Galvin and Eamon Breen) plus their midfielder Maurice Corridan would win one in 2009. The Finuge 2005 team that played in Division 3 were a better team than the Glenbeigh 2017 team that currently plays in Division 1 IMHO.

harp (Tyrone) - Posts:129 - 23/02/2017 12:12:48   1959841

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My last thoughts on it. I will never be convinced that a Division 1 league team has any place in a junior championship end of. To say if a team is good enough they will win their championship holds no water if they are playing teams that don't belong in that grade. Finally - how can a player be allowed to play in both junior/intermediate and senior championships in the same year?

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:408 - 23/02/2017 12:22:18   1959844

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What people dont understand apart from possobly Dr Crokes no Juggernaut superclubs like in Dublin that are way ahead of the rest.

There is a pretty even standard generally between teams in the Top 3 Divisions and then there is a fall off. People are too hung up on the Division 1 thing. Division 2 and 3 teams all the time beat Division 1 sides without an eyelid being batted

Also some clubs can be greatly affected if they have players in the IC setups which skews what Division teams are in and how good they actually are. Most of the County League games are played during Summer so teams are going to be down players whether be involved with Kerry or gone to States for summer

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:131 - 23/02/2017 12:44:53   1959849

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So basically the jist of all this is that Tyrone's club competitions are structured differently to most other counties.

Given this, Tyrone posters don't think its fair that they have to compete with these other non-Tyrone clubs in All-Ireland competitions.

However instead of Tyrone changing their own club structures to be in line with the rest, they want everyone else to follow their model.

Got it, thanks.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:2376 - 23/02/2017 12:50:14   1959853

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Replying To TheHermit:  "So basically the jist of all this is that Tyrone's club competitions are structured differently to most other counties.

Given this, Tyrone posters don't think its fair that they have to compete with these other non-Tyrone clubs in All-Ireland competitions.

However instead of Tyrone changing their own club structures to be in line with the rest, they want everyone else to follow their model.

Got it, thanks."
Very last thoughts.....
Why keep turning this about the Tyrone structures? It was a question brought up by a Roscommon poster about the structures in Kerry that sees a Division 1 team playing in the junior All-Ireland that started the thread. Plus posters from numerous counties have queried how the Kerry structure is set up and have said the system in their counties is the same as that used in Tyrone.
And why can no one answer the question of a player being allowed to play in two championships in the same year?

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:408 - 23/02/2017 13:06:01   1959863

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Replying To benched:  "Very last thoughts.....
Why keep turning this about the Tyrone structures? It was a question brought up by a Roscommon poster about the structures in Kerry that sees a Division 1 team playing in the junior All-Ireland that started the thread. Plus posters from numerous counties have queried how the Kerry structure is set up and have said the system in their counties is the same as that used in Tyrone.
And why can no one answer the question of a player being allowed to play in two championships in the same year?"
Jesus wept man, its the Tyrone lads on here that are going on and on about this, count the number of posts ye have put up, all asking the same stuff!

I and others have already tried to answer all of yer question and we have answered your specific question about players playing senior and junior etc: It's because of the divisional teams in Kerry.

God almighty this has run to 7 pages and 131 posts and some of ye still don't seem to be able to get your head around things as basic as a divisional side or a separation between league and championship.

I better not start talking about the Divisional Leagues and Championships or this thread will run for the rest of time.

In a nutshell: Kerry has different club structures to Tyrone. A lot of counties, esp in the 26, have structures similar to Kerry.
Comparing a Division 3 team in Tyrone to a division 3 team in Kerry is pointless because they are not the same.

G/G are a junior club and have as much right to be classed as one as any other club that competed in the All-Ireland JFC this year.

non facilis est semper on here is it!

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:2376 - 23/02/2017 13:52:53   1959878

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Replying To TheHermit:  "So basically the jist of all this is that Tyrone's club competitions are structured differently to most other counties.

Given this, Tyrone posters don't think its fair that they have to compete with these other non-Tyrone clubs in All-Ireland competitions.

However instead of Tyrone changing their own club structures to be in line with the rest, they want everyone else to follow their model.

Got it, thanks."
Think you've lost the plot benched - its Kerry Championship that seems to be the exception not the rule and to have a senior team play against junior sides no matter where they are from is an injustice - considering the amount of finals and titles Kerry teams have won in the lower (Junior/Intermediate) AI club series - also suggests there is a problem. Not being an expert of Tyrone club scene - Rock are Div 3 (Junior) and play in a Junior Championship in Tyrone and then Ulster. They then reach final to play a team that's senior in Kerry because this team has opted for Junior championship. Based on the red hand posters Rock will not play Junior championship next year as they are promoted to Div 2 Intermediate and can only participate in that championship. It also strikes me that most other counties follow this format.

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts:585 - 23/02/2017 14:13:00   1959884

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Replying To TheHermit:  "So basically the jist of all this is that Tyrone's club competitions are structured differently to most other counties.

Given this, Tyrone posters don't think its fair that they have to compete with these other non-Tyrone clubs in All-Ireland competitions.

However instead of Tyrone changing their own club structures to be in line with the rest, they want everyone else to follow their model.

Got it, thanks."
Think you've lost the plot Hermit (I meant to say sorry benched!!!) - its Kerry Championship that seems to be the exception not the rule and to have a senior team play against junior sides no matter where they are from is an injustice - considering the amount of finals and titles Kerry teams have won in the lower (Junior/Intermediate) AI club series - also suggests there is a problem. Not being an expert of Tyrone club scene - Rock are Div 3 (Junior) and play in a Junior Championship in Tyrone and then Ulster. They then reach final to play a team that's senior in Kerry because this team has opted for Junior championship. Based on the red hand posters Rock will not play Junior championship next year as they are promoted to Div 2 Intermediate and can only participate in that championship. It also strikes me that most other counties follow this format.

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts:585 - 23/02/2017 14:14:54   1959885

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Hermit-- rock getting my beat by brosna has nothing to do with this topic - unless u tell me that Brosna were an intermediate or senior team that year.. if it was rock (junior) against brosna (junior) then they were beat by the better team on the day. If not the case then Rock were beaten by a team that shouldn't have been there.

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 23/02/2017 15:34:36   1959913

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Counties have different ways to run their championship and each are entitled to do so. In Kerry, GG have been a genuine Junior Club and have not been able to win the Junior championship for many years despite being favourites to do so in those years. The fact that they have progressed to division 1 of the county league has helped them to win the championship as they gained experience of playing against teams at that level. Its important that people know that there would be little difference between lots of teams in the bottom half of division one and the top half of division 3. The reason the county league is taken seriously is because most teams recognise that the better standard you are playing the better chance you have at performing and winning the championship. GG are not Senior, nor will they be. Their chances of winning the Intermediate next year would not be high.

Someone asked can the players play in 2 championships. The answer is yes and no! Players from junior and intermediate graded teams get to play in the Senior County Championship with their division. The Senior County Championship is a completely different competition to the Senior Club, Inter and Junior Championships. If Kerry didnt have the divisional structure then players like Declan or Darran wouldnt have even played in the Senior County Championship, not to mind win one (and then also to get the honour of captaining Kerry)

Someone also referenced that GG got to choose to play at Junior. This is not correct and it would be very rare that a club asks to be regraded. This can only be done with the agreement of the county board and the only team I can think of was An Ghealtacht about 5 years ago when they lost all the Se's, Cinneide etc. Population too small to keep at senior level.

The system works for Kerry, and I think should it could/ should be adopted by other counties. I know Laois tried to bring it in a few years ago and it was defeated at the county board level. At the end of the day in Kerry it raises the standard and raises the value of winning a championship medal. If other counties feel that 16 teams are of the quality to the Senior then so be it, but in Kerry there are 8 and I think that will be the number for a while to come.

Defullback2017 (Kerry) - Posts:3 - 23/02/2017 16:09:27   1959928

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Brosna were in Division 3 and had been promoted from the 4th tier the previous year but that doesn't suit the Kerry haters narrative

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:131 - 23/02/2017 16:20:05   1959934

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There would seem to be an amount of confusion regarding certain aspects of Kerry's football structure. In Kerry there are 5 football championships which are as follows; the County Football Championship; the Senior Club Championship; the Intermediate Club Championship; the Premier Junior Championship; the Junior Club Championship. The County Football Championship is contested by the Senior Clubs and the county's Divisional teams. A player from one of the Divisional teams may play in both the County Football Championship and any of the other championships apart from the Senior Club Championship as to be selected for a Divisional team you must play for a club other than a senior club. There is no question of a club choosing which grade it would like to compete in; that honour has to be won in championship play.
In counties which have a grading system based on league position there is no onus on a club to win a championship to move up the grades which means that a senior club after three seasons of senior championship could through a concatenation of circumstance i.e injuries, unavailability, player absences through travel, find itself playing in division three thus in the junior grade. Assuming that the player roster is more or less the same over such a short time span, is it then fair to have what is essentially a senior team playing junior football?
In Kerry there are five divisions in the County League with three up and three down. This structure allows all the clubs the chance to move up and down the divisions quickly and all the clubs are considered to be senior which creates a strong identity for even the smallest of clubs. Each championship in Kerry is hard won and it gives the small clubs a chance to measure themselves against the big boys. This system works in Kerry and it does not mean that the Junior Championship is somehow doctored. Looking at the teams that have won the All-Ireland Junior clubs such as Brosna, Finuge, Castlegregory, Ardfert and Skellig Rangers were lower division teams as were Duagh who lost in a final.
The Kerry winners of the Junior Club All-Ireland are in general small rural clubs. Ardfert is hurling country as is Finuge. Brosna, Castlegregory, Duagh, Templenoe and Portmagee are small and even Caherciveen and Kenmare are small towns with Kenmare as much a hurling as a football town. Kerry football has no magic formula other than instilling the basics from a young age and giving clubs competitive football to suit their needs which they often surpass and in the case of small clubs this usually happens with the assistance of a couple of talented players. Yes of course there are some wonderful nurseries but without the clubs and the club structure Kerry inter-county football would not be as strong as it has and continues to be.

kerryfrog (Kerry) - Posts:2 - 23/02/2017 16:37:58   1959946

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Brosna were in Division 3 and had been promoted from the 4th tier the previous year but that doesn't suit the Kerry haters narrative"
Lads letz all give up time every one in ireland except kerry are right at all times( bit like the wife) so its time we all said sorry !!!thiz year castlederg won the junior league so in doing this they can only play intermedate champnship next yearand we can promise never to dare do what cookstown r derrytresk done are tyrone did and be so damm cheeky as to beat them!!!

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:44 - 23/02/2017 16:58:16   1959959

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