National - All-Ireland Junior Football Final

clear as mud!! but clearly has worked in kerry to keep producing great Senior county teams!!

for me personally firstly playing in an amalgamated would be of no interest. Playing along with rivals, to get in the shop window for a call up to the county setup or as an attempt to get the opportunity to play seniors. I feel you should win your way up to seniors with your parish not a hybrid team.

Is the county selectors viewing junior footballers to see talent.? Cathal McShane here in Tyrone was a playing junior and developed well with a junior team.

keepherlow (Tyrone) - Posts:117 - 22/02/2017 12:38:53   1959533

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Replying To keepherlow:  "clear as mud!! but clearly has worked in kerry to keep producing great Senior county teams!!

for me personally firstly playing in an amalgamated would be of no interest. Playing along with rivals, to get in the shop window for a call up to the county setup or as an attempt to get the opportunity to play seniors. I feel you should win your way up to seniors with your parish not a hybrid team.

Is the county selectors viewing junior footballers to see talent.? Cathal McShane here in Tyrone was a playing junior and developed well with a junior team."
for me personally firstly playing in an amalgamated would be of no interest. Playing along with rivals, to get in the shop window for a call up to the county setup or as an attempt to get the opportunity to play seniors. I feel you should win your way up to seniors with your parish not a hybrid team.


I think the above sentiment highlights the fundamental difference between Kerry and other counties as regards attaining sustained success at inter-county level.

In Kerry, the county team takes precedent over club loyalty etc. I think that's a huge reason why we are so successful.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:2654 - 22/02/2017 13:00:57   1959546

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I thought there was a request from Croke Park years ago that leagues should not determine what level a club plays championship at? I know of some counties that had the same system as Tyrone still have but changed it due to this request. The reason for it was some clubs who would rely heavily on their county players were refusing to play any league games without these players as it could lead to their relegation from senior or intermediate. With the threat of championship relegation gone clubs would be happier to play without their main players and so all club players would get more regular games in the summer.

Soma (UK) - Posts:1925 - 22/02/2017 13:12:57   1959548

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Kerry are king pins of the all ireland by far away but ur club should be first having had the honor of managing my club to a all ireland i knw what it means to the area after ur semi first call i got while still on pitch was from a top county player with 3 all ireland winning medals was that he would hand them back for the chance to walk out on croke park in his club top with out the clubs there is no gaa

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:72 - 22/02/2017 13:20:20   1959553

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No one has answered yet do players play for Divisional sides in the senior championship and then for their club sides in junior or intermediate?

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 13:24:54   1959556

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If the Rock only got relegated from Intermediate because of a league position then aren't they too strong for the Junior championship?

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts:1199 - 22/02/2017 13:27:48   1959559

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Replying To hoopman:  "Kerry are king pins of the all ireland by far away but ur club should be first having had the honor of managing my club to a all ireland i knw what it means to the area after ur semi first call i got while still on pitch was from a top county player with 3 all ireland winning medals was that he would hand them back for the chance to walk out on croke park in his club top with out the clubs there is no gaa"
I think Kerry's record in both the Junior and Intermediate shows how important the club is.

The divisional structure allows players from rural and isolated areas show their worth to Kerry management, it also helps keep them with their club as opposed to move to a glamorous club to try and get in the Kerry setup

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:280 - 22/02/2017 13:48:55   1959565

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Replying To benched:  "No one has answered yet do players play for Divisional sides in the senior championship and then for their club sides in junior or intermediate?"
Yes, Darran O'Sullivan lines out for the Mid-Kerry divisional side in Senior and plays for G/G in the junior championship.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:2654 - 22/02/2017 14:01:16   1959568

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Replying To Superglue:  "If the Rock only got relegated from Intermediate because of a league position then aren't they too strong for the Junior championship?"
yes, most definitely they are too strong for the junior championship in Tyrone. the last 3 times they have played in the junior championship since 2007 they have won it.

gaaland (Tyrone) - Posts:2 - 22/02/2017 14:10:00   1959570

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Replying To Superglue:  "If the Rock only got relegated from Intermediate because of a league position then aren't they too strong for the Junior championship?"
No because over the course of the previous year their league results showed them not to be in the top two thirds of teams in Tyrone - therefore the go to Division 3 and play in the junior championship.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 14:12:05   1959572

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "I think Kerry's record in both the Junior and Intermediate shows how important the club is.

The divisional structure allows players from rural and isolated areas show their worth to Kerry management, it also helps keep them with their club as opposed to move to a glamorous club to try and get in the Kerry setup"
Kerrys record in the intermediate could also be said to be helped by the fact only 8 clubs play senior championship. In Tyrone (as that seems to be the comparison everyone is using) the top 16 play in the senior. If teams ranked 9 - 16 played intermediate I would think they would prove even more competitive than our intermediate teams at present are, which isn't a bad record by anyone's standards.
With academies, schools football, development squads etc. on the go now I don't hold much to the notion that playing for a junior team will stop any quality player from getting on a county panel if they are good enough.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 14:24:00   1959573

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yes, Darran O'Sullivan lines out for the Mid-Kerry divisional side in Senior and plays for G/G in the junior championship."
Does this not count as playing in two championships in the one year?

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 14:24:44   1959574

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Replying To benched:  "Does this not count as playing in two championships in the one year?"
No because one of them isn't a club it is a Divisional team and G/G is one of the clubs that feed players to it.

I never thought Kerry's club scene could be such a mystery to the outside world. Listen, I'm sure to some of ye it all sounds very daft and complicated but in practice it works extremely well.

We have a senior championship that is of high quality and very competitive.

Our intermediate and junior clubs have a brilliant record in the All-Ireland Championships.

The League competition also has a lot of prestige and its a huge achievement for tiny rural clubs like Templeone getting promoted to Division 1 and testing themselves against the Austin Stacks & Dr Crokes of the world.

The Divisional teams have given junior/novice players in the past (such as Declan O'Sullivan and Darran O'Sullivan) a stage to show they were good enough to be part of the county team.

While club loyalties/rivalries are as passionate as anywhere, in Kerry the culture is that they are also subservient (for the most part) to the progress of the county team.
For example, outside of Legion supporters I'd say every clubman in Kerry is willing on Dr Crokes on St Patrick's day. I doubt it would be the same in Galway if Portmuna were in a final!!

Considering Kerry's success rate and consistency in inter-county football for over a century now, I think we've stumbled upon something pretty good...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:2654 - 22/02/2017 15:04:31   1959583

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From reading the posts, most of which are detailed and informative, it would seem that there is little guidance/regulation from Croke Park on club structures within counties, Each county can apparently decide on it's own structure. This surely makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have the kind of parity between counties that should underpin All-Ireland competitions at both Junior and Intermediate Levels.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts:779 - 22/02/2017 15:05:55   1959585

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Replying To benched:  "Kerrys record in the intermediate could also be said to be helped by the fact only 8 clubs play senior championship. In Tyrone (as that seems to be the comparison everyone is using) the top 16 play in the senior. If teams ranked 9 - 16 played intermediate I would think they would prove even more competitive than our intermediate teams at present are, which isn't a bad record by anyone's standards.
With academies, schools football, development squads etc. on the go now I don't hold much to the notion that playing for a junior team will stop any quality player from getting on a county panel if they are good enough."
Well it only changed to 8 teams in 2016 and St Mary's Cahirciveen who won 2015-16 AI Inter were beaten in the 1st Round of the Kerry Inter Championship last year so by that logic they could be rated anywhere from 17-25. G/G needed extra time to beat St Pats (Div 3) beat Ballydonoghue (Div 3) by 3 points having trailed for long spells and needed a replay to beat Na Gaeil (Div 4) and they really should have won the first day so believe me when I day there is great depth in both of these competitons,

it's when you reach the lower levels that the standard dips quite a bit as the teams in the lower levels have been hugely affected by emigration and barely fielding Senior teams.

Those academies you refer to - well the divisions exist from U-14 upwards. If they weren't there lads in Division 5,6,7 of the Underage Leagues would be a severe disadvantage in comparison with their big town contemporaries who generally ply their trade in the higher divisons

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:280 - 22/02/2017 15:19:42   1959591

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Well it only changed to 8 teams in 2016 and St Mary's Cahirciveen who won 2015-16 AI Inter were beaten in the 1st Round of the Kerry Inter Championship last year so by that logic they could be rated anywhere from 17-25. G/G needed extra time to beat St Pats (Div 3) beat Ballydonoghue (Div 3) by 3 points having trailed for long spells and needed a replay to beat Na Gaeil (Div 4) and they really should have won the first day so believe me when I day there is great depth in both of these competitons,

it's when you reach the lower levels that the standard dips quite a bit as the teams in the lower levels have been hugely affected by emigration and barely fielding Senior teams.

Those academies you refer to - well the divisions exist from U-14 upwards. If they weren't there lads in Division 5,6,7 of the Underage Leagues would be a severe disadvantage in comparison with their big town contemporaries who generally ply their trade in the higher divisons"
We all suffer from tht few years back i took a team tht had 23 players from 16 to 43 we then lost 8 that i think every country suffers as for picking county players i knw in tyrone we have players in clubs that are better than some if not most of our county team

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts:72 - 22/02/2017 16:08:34   1959604

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Replying To TheHermit:  "No because one of them isn't a club it is a Divisional team and G/G is one of the clubs that feed players to it.

I never thought Kerry's club scene could be such a mystery to the outside world. Listen, I'm sure to some of ye it all sounds very daft and complicated but in practice it works extremely well.

We have a senior championship that is of high quality and very competitive.

Our intermediate and junior clubs have a brilliant record in the All-Ireland Championships.

The League competition also has a lot of prestige and its a huge achievement for tiny rural clubs like Templeone getting promoted to Division 1 and testing themselves against the Austin Stacks & Dr Crokes of the world.

The Divisional teams have given junior/novice players in the past (such as Declan O'Sullivan and Darran O'Sullivan) a stage to show they were good enough to be part of the county team.

While club loyalties/rivalries are as passionate as anywhere, in Kerry the culture is that they are also subservient (for the most part) to the progress of the county team.
For example, outside of Legion supporters I'd say every clubman in Kerry is willing on Dr Crokes on St Patrick's day. I doubt it would be the same in Galway if Portmuna were in a final!!

Considering Kerry's success rate and consistency in inter-county football for over a century now, I think we've stumbled upon something pretty good..."
But the player is still playing two championships for two different teams - how hard is that to understand?
You keep saying how good a record the intermediate and junior clubs have (given Kerry record as the leading football county this would probably be expected) but can you agree that the grading system probably contributes to this also?
As I said the cream will always rise to the top as far as players being selected for the county - was Declan O'Sullivan not already earmarked for greatness due to his exploits in college football, I don't think it took an amalgamated team to bring him to the attention of the county selectors.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 16:23:11   1959606

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Replying To neverright:  "From reading the posts, most of which are detailed and informative, it would seem that there is little guidance/regulation from Croke Park on club structures within counties, Each county can apparently decide on it's own structure. This surely makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have the kind of parity between counties that should underpin All-Ireland competitions at both Junior and Intermediate Levels."
That's basically sums it all up

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 16:25:54   1959607

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Replying To KYTotalFootball:  "Well it only changed to 8 teams in 2016 and St Mary's Cahirciveen who won 2015-16 AI Inter were beaten in the 1st Round of the Kerry Inter Championship last year so by that logic they could be rated anywhere from 17-25. G/G needed extra time to beat St Pats (Div 3) beat Ballydonoghue (Div 3) by 3 points having trailed for long spells and needed a replay to beat Na Gaeil (Div 4) and they really should have won the first day so believe me when I day there is great depth in both of these competitons,

it's when you reach the lower levels that the standard dips quite a bit as the teams in the lower levels have been hugely affected by emigration and barely fielding Senior teams.

Those academies you refer to - well the divisions exist from U-14 upwards. If they weren't there lads in Division 5,6,7 of the Underage Leagues would be a severe disadvantage in comparison with their big town contemporaries who generally ply their trade in the higher divisons"
Emigration has hit clubs throughout the country. These competitions are designed for teams outside the elite who are struggling, something for every club to aspire to, that's why it seems strange to some that a team in Division 1 of traditionally the strongest county in the country is eligible to take part.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts:422 - 22/02/2017 16:29:40   1959609

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Replying To benched:  "Emigration has hit clubs throughout the country. These competitions are designed for teams outside the elite who are struggling, something for every club to aspire to, that's why it seems strange to some that a team in Division 1 of traditionally the strongest county in the country is eligible to take part."
They are eligible to take part because they never won the Kerry Junior Championship until 2016

I think people are getting too hung up on the Divisions , as I pointed they barely teams in Div 3 and 4, and the likes of Templenoe and Brosna both came from the lower divisions indeed as did teams in years past such as Skellig Rangers , Castlegregory etc none of whom have been in Division 1.

Im almost certain that G/G have been the only Division 1 team to have won either AI Junior or Intermediate, it was an anomaly as opposed to the rule

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts:280 - 22/02/2017 17:06:56   1959617

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